*Audio Cue*

Host

Before we start today’s show, I want to give you a little head’s up. We’re going to talk a lot about Santa. Now, while we pretty clearly say that he does exist. We do also acknowledge that there are other opinions. And with that, away we go.

*Audio Cue*

Yuletide carol.

Host

What comes to mind when you think Christmas?

Catherine

Something as simple as coming down on Christmas morning and reading the letter from Santa.

When I grew up, we were to – we basically had to go and pray at the manger before we could open up our our presents. We had to actually pray to baby Jesus and and say happy birthday to him before we could move on to the festivities of Santa Claus and all the gifts and all those things.

I grew up in a Catholic family. I do not have a Catholic family now.

So now I think it’s more of just the tradition of her coming downstairs, reading the letter from Santa, opening stockings, and then we move on from there.

Host

Oh, so this is something new?

Catherine

Yeah, I think the letters from Santa is something new.

Host

How did you choose Letter from Santa then?

Catherine

I think I wanted to acknowledge Colette’s present activities. Like last year, the letter focused on her being a big sister, and having a new baby in the family, and how good she was doing, and what a good skier she was. And, that he’s watching her.

I had to reinforce the he was watching her thing. I think that was probably it was the reinforcement of her.

So she knows that he knows who she is. So it is not this this figment of her imagination. That he’s actually like a real thing that watches her and knows what she does.

I think we use it as a behavior –  What do you want to call that? – A behavior Reinforcement for good behavior.

So not naughty and nice list.

Like, I don’t think she knows anything about the naughty and nice list, but she definitely knows that he acknowledges when she’s being good. Well, forget the bad, but we’ll just really reinforce the good behavior and that there’s somebody else keeping track of her.

Host

When she is older. Have you thought about what – what you might tell her about Santa when she’s maybe 18 or I don’t know, 13, whatever…

Catherine

When it I’ve asked my older sisters with their kids who are all teenagers when that happened, and they still just want to believe. Like they still believe, even if people say it isn’t real. That you still believe in your heart that there’s…that belief factor that you – even though it may be suspicious that he might not be real, that still believe in him and let’s believe in the magic.

And I think it translates more to the magic of Christmas versus the magic of an actual man. Like Santa being a man, that it’s just the magic of Christmas that you still believe believe in.

Host

I was in10th grade when a teacher told my group of friends that she didn’t let her kids believe in Santa Claus. That she wasn’t going to lie to her kids.

I’d never met anyone with that worldview before. I’d never even thought that someone could think that way. Telling kids that Santa is real. I got to be honest, it was really hard then, and it’s really hard now for me to think of that as a lie.

Host (Echo)

A lie, lie, lie.

Host

I just don’t see the world like that.

I mean, sure, I don’t want to, but also – I can’t because everywhere I look during the Christmas season, I see jolly old Saint Nick.

I see him on billboards and coupon books, sat in his lap and whispered my most desperate wishes into his ear. I’ve been there as Kris Kringle handed out presents to the kids that might not have otherwise had anything under the tree.

There’s no way Santa doesn’t exist. In each of these moments, these memories. He’s right there.

Santa Is real.

And we – you and me – and all the forefathers of the Christmas spirit before us. We’ve carried Saint Nicholas for hundreds of years. Never letting Santa down. Just like he never seems to let down a believer.

Maybe you and I. Maybe we’ve been thinking about Santa the wrong way our whole lives.

Maybe we’ve been thinking too small.

This is creating Christmas : Santa does exist.

*Audio Cue*

Santa hold on. Santa hold on. Oh, oh. Oh, Santa. I’m on my way now.

Host

If you think Santa Claus is a new thing, think again. Santa Claus, our jolly Saint Nick, he’s only the most modern iteration of a holiday Gift-Bringer character. He stands on the shoulders of giants with a long line of forefathers. I mean, there were a ton of them: Saint Nicholas, Belsnickel, Krampus, even the Christ Child is one of these.

See the idea of a supernatural being visiting homes and bestowing children with either presents or punishments, that dates back thousands of years.

Like, I keep saying there was no organization creating door to door gift bringers. They were something that a wide range of cultures and our own forefathers invented, embraced, and eventually passed down And like so many other holiday traditions, there was opportunity after opportunity to let the yearly customs disappear. But we didn’t. We chose to hold on. Changing the shape and the specifics, but cherishing essentially the same core characteristics.

We’re not going to do a full dove into the long line that leads to the North Pole, not this episode, at least. Instead, we’re going to jump ahead to the year 1823 when Santa exploded on the scene.

Storyteller (A Visit From St. Nicholas)

Twas the night before Christmas when all through the house, not a creature was stirring, not even a mouse. The stockings were hung by the chimney with care. In hopes that St. Nicholas soon would be there.

Ace Collins

A poem.

Hi. I’m Ace Collins.

It was written by a minister because he wanted to share a little bit of that Eastern European magic with his children. He wrote the poem that we know as ’Twas the Night Before Christmas’. He called it, ‘A Visit from Saint Nick’. It was published in newspapers, and it literally was published all over the country within a couple of years.

Host

Okay. Yes. So there were Saint Nicholas figures before this particular poem was published. Also, some of Santa Claus his characteristics were already being talked about. And the name Santa Claus, which doesn’t actually appear in this poem, had been used in other recent Christmas stories. But all of these, they were just scattered accounts.

Nothing had brought all the ideas together in one place under one character. And even if they had, not a single one of these earlier appearances touched anywhere close to the massive success of a visit from Saint Nicholas.

This one poem is where our Santa Claus came together, combining the reindeer, the attitude the presents, the flying sleigh.

*Audio Cue*

Merry Christmas

Host

Add to that, it was and still is, one of the most popular poems in the entire world.

But it’s just poem, right?

How big can one poem’s impact really be?

Huge. Unbelievable.

The way society adopted this version of Saint Nick – it’s almost as if our entire tradition of Santa Claus starts right here. So one point, this poem, literally shaped the world’s view of Santa, gave the new Christmas revival of Face, and doing that really established the first tangible toehold for the holiday.

But it’s just a point, right?

I said we were going to follow the path that leads to Santa Claus becoming real. And this, is just a bunch of words, not really tangible, but this poem gave us one central character with all the characteristics and was popular enough that we all kind of suddenly had this shared set of beliefs as to who and what Santa was.

And with those other people could begin building out Santa. That’s where he’s made real.

And this building, it started almost immediately because it turns out international celebrities make pretty good salesmen.

Ace Collins

Admittedly, stores took advantage of that because that meant they could sell presents.

Host

Talking about commerce, money, at Christmas, kind of seems out of place – maybe?

For thousands of years, it was a time of abundance, indulgence, generosity. So it might feel a bit wrong to saddle that time with thoughts of bills and buying things. But I mean, there really two sides of the same coin.

Now, Santa’s first foray into marketing actually appears before the publication of a visit to Saint Nick in 1820.

There’s a jewelry ad claiming that the jewelry was so good even Santa had to stop it up today.

Voice Over : Period Ad

…Saint Nicholas came in. He instantly commenced selecting trinkets rare as Christmas compliments from from lovers to the fair.

Host

Your initial usage of Santa in advertising followed this same sort of pattern; taking a popular idea Santa Claus and attaching him to a product. This is still pretty much how celebrities are used in advertising nowadays.

Like Keira Knightley’s, perfume ads. The idea is, if you like Keira Knightley, she likes this perfume. Therefore, you should like this perfume.

It’s simple.

It’s pretty simple.

It’s too simple, because Santa has super powers when it comes to the finances of Christmas. His endorsement is more than just a stamp of approval.

A gift from Santa is actually one that’s outside the world of commerce altogether. Which conveniently hides the actual economics in play – clouding the ideas of greed and overspending.

It would be a while before we all discovered that Santa Claus has a workshop full of elves. But even from the early years following the publishing of a visit from Saint Nicholas, there is an understanding that presents from Santa basically appear out of thin air.

Santa Claus doesn’t buy presents, never, and he gives his gifts away freely. So the objective cost of things means nothing to our new benevolent Santa. And that – that’s the Christmas spirit.

Now, this wasn’t so much a way that marketing or advertising changed. This was something that society and specifically parents embraced.

Remember, Family Center Christmas was new and removing, or at least circumventing money from the actual presents – that helped take out some of the moral complications that were pretty brand new to society and very much an issue to the rights of Christmas.

I do want to say this Workshop Santa – it’s still pretty much the way we understand Santa’s presents – except for this one kid I just spoke with who described Santa as a mystery shopper who, at check out, blows some mind erasing magic dust on the cashier and essentially shoplifts all the toys.

Anyway, as pop culture continued to build under the shape of Santa, advertising continued to adapt and change. For instance, in 1841 we get the first popular picture of our Santa Claus. And the very next year, the exact same photo was repurposed and used as an ad. 

It was really in the 1840s that Santa advertising spread to just about every part of society. It was at the very front of the wave of Christmas excitement that spread throughout the decade. With the mass popularization of a Christmas Carol and the Christmas tree and many other smaller traditions. By now, the character from the poem is fleshed out in many more stories and what would become an avalanche of illustrations, illustrations that would wind up on fliers, newspapers, even packaging for special Christmas only products.

So we suddenly live in a world where Santa may or may not be physically real, but he is at least as tangibly real as George Washington or the pyramids of Egypt were; things only seen in pictures with deeds and details found in stories. Sometimes these stories are found side by side, actual history and Santa Claus mixed together in Christmas gift books.

Now, I’m not saying that kids are dumb or that they can’t separate fantasy from reality. But around this time, we’re starting to edge towards a place where that line gets pretty blurry

Beyond targeted advertising, we see what I consider to be a major shift for Salesman Santa in the 1840s. He becomes a Life-Sized character in window displays. That’s right.

Santa finally moves the malls.

Well, department stores.

*Audio Mall Jingle*

Host

Quick aside : To understand what a big step forward this was. You have to know that window displays were very popular attractions during the holiday season since about the 1820s, and they were on their way to becoming a major focus of a department store’s entire year by the end of the 19th century.

People would travel to the city just to see these displays, and in several cities, the idea of strolling along the avenue became a staple tradition of Christmas.

Period Narration

All over the nation, eager shoppers parade before store windows packed with bright and shining presents for all the family, especially the youngsters. And it’s a big problem to make a selection without breaking Santa Pretty little girls and big beautiful.

Host

So Santa was everywhere, but he wasn’t the same in every place.

Since “A visit from Saint Nick”, we had a general outline and feel for the character, but the exact look of Santa Claus – that was something that was still open to interpretation, with people trying out a wide array of appearances, clothing and colors. We needed to come together and agree on a single look for Old Saint Nick. Then we could collectively build and believe even more on and in the character.

The winning appearance first began to take shape in an 1862 Civil War political cartoon by Thomas Nast. Nast continued to draw Santa for another 20 years, finding inspiration for the appearance of the thick white beard, big fat belly and rosy cheeks in other contemporary drawings, as well as his own self-portrait.

Settling on a red suit that would come later in the early 1880s.

Now sharing both a common story and a common look, society had adopted the character in full and loved him. We loved him.

That can’t be overlooked, whether it’s kids loving the idea of a present bring her parents loving their kids loving that, parents loving the idea of a Santa that can help mitigate annual expense guilt or just someone trying to make a sale.

Santa is loved by just about everyone.

And this is where our story of the real Santa diverges.

There are two paths that this passionate fervor for Santa Claus. Takes at about the same time, Saint Nick becomes an actual physical experience and a Christmas spirit whose actions are literally made real.

First, let’s give them flesh and bones, because in my 1980s raised brain, this is where a Santa lives in a mall on a golden throne with an elf photographer.

1970’s Mall Santa Audio

Santa : Hello little girl, what did you want for Christmas?

Girl #1 : A Bike and a scooter.

Santa : A bike and a scooter?

Boy #1 : A box with some cowboys

Santa : Well, that’s all you want. You’ll be easily satisfied

Boy #2 : A drum to keep my daddy for you.

Santa : Oh, do you know. Is he a noisy daddy, then?

Boy #2 : Yeah. So what do you want for Christmas?

Host

Now, whether Santa’s physicalization is a story of commercialism tapping into the holiday spirit or something more whimsical and sprightly, depends on what you believe about Colonel Jim.

Colonel Jim was James Edgar, the owner of Edgar’s department store in Brockton, Massachusetts. Some accounts depict him as a bit of an eccentric as several times throughout the year, he dressing costume and walk around the store. He was a clown, a sea captain, George Washington, and then in 1890, just about the time school leading up to the day, Colonel Jim dressed in a Santa suit that he’d had custom made in Boston and wandered around his store.

Colonel Jim as Santa

Marry Christmas Everyone.

*Fans Screaming*

Host

It was an 1890s town version of pandemonium – sort of. He did draw a crowd and people began to travel just to visit his store. But I think Colonel Jim had more of a Christmas spirit or at least some kind of spirit because in later years he would just walk around the streets in the costume.

There’s another version of the story where Macy’s takes credit for the original mall Santa. But there isn’t much evidence beyond the claim, and I’ve learned to be a bit skeptical about general Christmas statements. Still if Macy’s was first, the two stores did it just about simultaneously and didn’t know about each other.

The Santa attractions that resemble something that most of us grew up with were a pretty logical step forward. Once the Living Santa was proven to attract customers, department stores combined them with their other major customer draw – window dressing – creating the first Santa and style experiences.

So, Kris Kringle was becoming more and more important. Santa’s his final evolution into a singular modern figure took place in new illustrations by artists in the 1910’s and 1920s, which would codify into the Santa we now recognize. Something like the Coke Santa. (Though Coke was only one of several different artists working at this.)

What this new wave of illustrations did was it moved Santa to the front of Christmas iconography. He was no longer an important part of Christmas – Santa was Christmas, and suddenly he was everywhere. The people in the red suit became so common that in 1937 the Salvation Army ended their practice of dressing and Santas to stop confusing kids.

Nowadays, all these different elements from the very beginning of Christmas are happening simultaneously for kids; ads, decorations, live interactions, and then, add to that, movies that build upon the Santa story in all kinds of ways.

In this way, Santa is real. At the very least, he’s as real as any celebrity

But I want to go back to mall Santas. They’ve come a long way since the turn of the century. There’s this trope that they wear fake beards and cheap suits, but most of the time it’s completely inaccurate.

Many people who work as Santa during the holiday season begin developing their look months before Christmas whitening and lengthening their beards organically, spinning Apple level money on authentic suits and even going to school. There have been Santa schools actually since 1937.

In my home, we call these people Santas helpers. And if we really look at them putting this much time and attention in the physical icing, their look and their attitude just to sit down and give a stranger – a kid – their ear, there’s something real and something incredibly special about that.

This all speaks to the larger truth of Santa.

There’s a tangible spirit in the world that wants Santa Claus to exist, which isn’t new. As I said, in the opening, society has carried gift bringers and Saint Nicholas for hundreds, if not thousands of years. Unwilling to set them down. What’s different now is the resources, time and ability we have to truly create Santa every year. And we do.

Every year, tens of thousands of people make sure that gifts, letters and candy canes are delivered to kids, complete strangers. That’s the second direction where Santa became real. And that’s after the break.

*Audio Break*

Host

What comes to mind when you think Christmas?

Jim

I think of Christmas, kind of the vintage Santa Claus.

Hi, I’m Jim. I live in Georgia, and I fly for a major airline.

I don’t know if you know this. I actually have been Santa. I love being Santa. It started in college when I was very skinny. There was a lot of padding involved.

And then – this was really pretty fun:

In our neighborhood before this one, the Homeowner Association owned a Santa outfit, and there were a few of us who played Santa. So the parents would send us a letter that had all the kids names, their teachers, the things they wanted. The big things that happened that year. And they would leave gifts by the garage door.

So you would just be, you know, like on the 22nd 23rd, you would pick up the gifts, knock on the door. Come in. Is Santa talk about how MS. Billingsley was so exciting, you know, so excited that their science homework was turned in on time. And it was unbelievable.

These kids, you could just see they believed.

And it was it was pretty involved. And there was a lot of memorization, like, is this a kid with… you know?

HOST

Were you nervous? Was it how long were you in there? Was it hard to keep up this this keep the conversation going? Or are the kids 100% like in enthralled with you being there at all?

Jim

I’m going to say yes and yes.

I found it very challenging, just like I said, just memorizing with this, you know? And what did they like it? Because you did like two or three kids, two or three houses in a night. So there would be, you know, eight or ten kids. You had to memorize all this information.

I had no tricks. I was just winging it the whole time. And I was sweating in that Santa suit because I just had no idea what was going to come up next. But no, the kids, I just remember them. They would be standing, you know, sitting at my feet and looking up. And their eyes were huge. And they were…they believe. So I really enjoy that.

Host

Do you ever think back and think about ‘what a magical experience’ that I mean, that’s such a rare thing. And then to do it every year with these kids, what a magical thing you’re a part of how even if they didn’t believe, they will always have that moment.

Jim

As I talk about it and you’re asking me, you know, I remember their faces and they were into them they were having a magic moment that I believe they will remember forever. And I remember it.

And it was part of it that, you know, that’s hopefully the part of Christmas, you know, is sharing giving things that you wouldn’t normally give.

*Audio Bump*

Voice Over period Editorial

Yes. Virginia, there is a Santa Claus.

Host

If you can quote any sentence that’s been published in the newspaper, it’s probably this one.

Originally published in 1897, this editorial has continued to be a part of the culture of Christmas for over 120 years. But if you read it, it really doesn’t actually touch on anything to do with the Santa Claus legend.

There’s no excuses for how a person can travel around the world in a single night, even using time zones. Or the way a fat man, no longer a small elf by this point, could fit down a chimney

Instead, this response to an eight year old’s letter, it takes on the larger pillars of the Santa story.

Voice Over period Editorial

…He exists as certainly as love and generosity and devotion exists. And you know that they abound and give to your life its highest beauty and joy. Alas, how dreary would be the world if there were no Santa Claus. It would be as dreary as if there were no Virginias. We should have no enjoyment except in sense and sight. The eternal light with…

Host

Which the writer, Francis P Church, he’s comparing the existence of Santa Claus to other ephemeral and nonphysical concepts. He’s outlining Santa almost to the point of saying that Santa is a concept – a concept that’s mere existence, makes the world a better place.

That’s the seed of our connection to Santa Claus. Like so many things in our holiday season, we’ve collectively wanted and needed something like this.

And many, many, many times we have chosen to make Santa a real thing, outside of commercialism. And also, and this is really important, slightly outside a basic charity.

Giving gifts to Santa isn’t simply giving to the needy. It’s wrapping the generosity into the story of something much larger and not giving just for physical need, but for something more.

One of the earliest examples of individuals making sure Santa lived was the new York Santa Society, where a philanthropist set out to answer all the letters to Santa that ended up in the dead letter office. In its first year, 1913, the society ended up donating 28,000 toys.

Then there’s Santa Claus, Indiana – a town that for over 100 years has made it a communal mission to answer every letter sent to Santa – 22,000 letters a year, with volunteers working 12 hours a day.

Even the editorial “Yes, Virginia. There’s A Santa Claus” was made a holiday charity by Macy’s for years.

These are only a handful of the many ways that we, people just like you and me, make Santa a reality every year. One of my favorite examples is actually the United States Post Office. The USPS operates a yearly gift program called Operation Santa that lets anyone fulfill a letter to Santa.

And this is actually only the most recent iteration of a very long standing mission to answer the letters addressed to the North Pole. That all started with individual mail carriers over 100 years ago deciding that Santa letters they got to be answered.

Rod Spurgeon

When we see this letters coming to Santa from our communities, you know, it impacts us as much as what impact anybody.

My name is Rod Spurgeon. I’m with the U.S. Postal Service, the USPS, Operation Santa.

USPS Operation Santa occurred many, many years ago.

So the official program was in 1912. Frank Hitchcock actually authorized employees to not only adopt letters, but to share them with customers. So we can share the cheer with kids who write letters to Santa.

But kids wrote letters were even before that. And for us, that was a beautiful thing, seeing these letters coming in and employees adopting them. So employees would get together and they’d adopt letters, but eventually it became pretty huge. So it was a big program beyond what employees could answer. And so that’s why in 1912 we were allowed to share these letters with customers.

And over the decades since that, the program’s really evolved big time. For nearly 100 years it operated on a local level. So in about 2009, we’re looking at privacy. So it started redacting personal information. So when a child sent their letter in to Santa, before we make that letter available to customers, we would remove the personally identifiable information – the last name of the address, Any reference to the school they go to or where their parents work. But really, that’s a lot of time consuming process.

And as more and more letters out, we see hundreds of thousands of letters going to Santa every year and redacting information. It’s a challenging process to do at all. And so that’s why in 2017 we tested a pilot program calling it “USPS Operation Santa”.

And so for the first time, we have a website where letters would get uploaded from children to the website so that customers can look at them and adopt them online. And so with the popularity of the program and we had a chance to work out all software, make sure everything is right. In 2020, we went live across the nation.

So for the first time, in the history of Operation Santa, every child had a chance to write to Santa Claus. And that letter would get uploaded to our USPS operation Santa website. Never in the history of the program has just been so universally adoptable and accessible for kids. And tens of thousands of kids have participated.

So far. And this is the middle of December, we’ve had 21,000 children write letters to Santa and have those adopted.

Host

So this is the busiest time of the year for the USPS. You guys have so many packages already going through. Isn’t taking on a program like the letter stamp program or Operation Santa? Isn’t that just creating more work when you’re already swamped?

Rod Spurgeon

That’s exactly why I started the USPS Operation Santa program, because we know how important this kind of program is to the community, we want to keep it going. And we know how labor intensive, redacting personal information can be in organizing all the letters. And so the digital version allows us to keep the program in the spirit of the holidays alive, not just today for future generations.

Host

So we’ve been tracing back the magic that makes Santa real. And that’s what I love about Operation Santa. These are actual letters to Santa Claus.

Someone, somewhere out there sat down and wrote out their thoughts and wishes and then sent them to the North Pole. And we get to take a glimpse at that and by participating – to someone out there, Santas real, like, really real.

Rod Spurgeon

I get a chance to participate in the program. I get a chance to talk about the program. It means so much to me. And I want to make sure that everybody has a chance to know that we have people who care about this. And for kids getting something back from Santa in a letter or recognition that Santa knows they’re a little special. That is something for me personally that I appreciate.

And I want the next generation to know just how much the magic of the holidays inspires people. It makes everyone better and improves moods and improves the outlook on life. It gives hope, and especially during difficult times or in challenging situations, it’s nice to know that someone else cares. And by writing a letter to Santa, getting something in return, it was just a letter that says, We wish you a happy holiday season and we’re here for you.

You know, that to me is something special. And I want every generation that comes after me to know that the magic of the holidays is there for them.

Host

Another thing I love about Operation Santa and programs like it is that it makes Santa Claus bigger than a person, a bigger thing.

I wasn’t sure how I was going to address Santa Claus for my daughter. I was always under the impression that the only way out is cold turkey but I was talking to my friend Erin a few years ago, and this is something that she didn’t see as inevitable.

Instead of Santa being one person, she was raising her daughter in the spirit of Santa. Now, at three years old, the spirit of Santa was pretty two dimensional. But she said when her daughter Sena got old enough or chose to question Santa, she tell her.

Voice Over : Mother to Erin

I’m so glad you said that. To me, you know, Santa can’t be everywhere and he needs help. This year you are finally old enough to be Santa.

Host

And it’s programs like this that let this happen. Santa can exist and we can all help him continue to exist.

There is, of course, another way to look at all these stories as examples of the incredible lengths adults will go to in order to perpetuate a character. But this way of looking at things doesn’t address the actual reality.

A letter written to Santa Claus, Indiana, is actually getting a positive handwritten response. Kids who get presents from the USPS Operation Santa are actually getting presents.

These are real life instances. And as I said in the beginning, they may not be performed by a man in a flying sleigh, but they are carried out by a team of people working together to get the letter or the package or the present to someone special that’s Santa Claus. If not by name, then at least by action.

And after all.

Voice Over : “Romeo and Juliet”

What’s in a name that which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

Host

This season, when you see Kris Kringle decorating billboards or in malls or hear his name whispered between kids. Know that Santa Claus, jolly old Saint Nick, he’s as real now as he was thousands of years ago. And if you don’t see that consider the idea that Santa Claus might be much bigger than you ever thought possible.

Instead of fixating on the jolly old elf and his eight tiny reindeer, step back and wonder at the bounty of what having Santa Claus has done.

Creating Christmas was produced this week by Bobby Christian and Oversaturatedinc.

Special thanks today to Catherine and Jim for sharing their stories of Christmas with us.

Ace Collins and his book Stories Behind the Great Traditions of Christmas.

Rob Spurgeon with Operation Santa, which you can find at USPS, Operation SantaCon.

And my wife Jade for voicing Erin.

And for Erin for broadening my idea of Santa in the first place.

You can find all our episodes and even more Christmas stories at CreatingChristmasPodcast.com.

Until next time. I’m Bob Christian.

Stay jolly.